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A couple of months ago I posted a rant on My Space about getting screwed over by illegal downloading. The number of responses to the post was surprising. I received a ton of support, and a fair amount of disagreement (some of which was not put very eloquently, to say the least). Recently I've had a couple of requests from people to forward the rant to them. Alas, it is lost in the data stream, and I have not kept to copy of it. So I've decided to cover the issue again, this time from what is hopefully a more "informative" manner than from simply a "pissed off" stand-point.

First, let me explain exactly what the issue that I am talking about is. There are many viewpoints on the subject, but the one that I'm talking specifically about here is the process of posting and/or downloading FULL CD's. I'm NOT talking about swapping a few mp3's. While some argument can be made that it can amount to the same thing- download enough individual tracks and you can have a full CD- I'm not here to split hairs. It may appear as though I am trying to have my cake and eat it to, but I liken the swapping of individual mp3's to my younger days when I answered classified ads for tape traders posted in the backs of MAXIMUM ROCK AND ROLL and INDUSTRIAL NATION magazines. Back in the day, before the internet, swapping tapes with people was one of the best ways that I had to hear new music that was not available to me. I am NOT talking about sharing an mp3 or two, so don't even get your mind going in that direction.

I'm also not talking about how this affects the CORPORATE LABEL EMPIRE. The corporate labels have fucked up the market so much that they're partially to blame for the whole "downloading full CD's is o.k." mentality. Look, the corporate bands have the money to go on tour, charge $50 for a ticket, $35 for a t-shirt, and get sponsorship money from Pepsi and Taco Bell. You can download corporate music until the cows come home and they'll still find some way to get your money. We're not Brittany Spears, we're not Metallica, we're not even Englebert Humperdink. We're an independent band on an independent label, and we're struggling just to get by. Any argument made about why "downloading CD's is o.k." that has ANYTHING to do with CORPORATE labels, corporate bands, or the actions of either of the two- does NOT apply here. I'm talking about how downloading FULL CD's is hurting the UNDERGROUND. Forget about the mega-labels while reading this. Whatever arguments that you may have that begin "Sony did this" or "RIAA did that" or whatever, just keep them to yourself. They have no bearing in this discussion. Don't get side-tracked by another issue altogether.

Let me also say that I'm am not standing on a pedestal nor do I have wings on my back. You will not find any passage in the bible with reference to "Saint Cable". I've used cracked programs, I've downloaded an mp3 or two for whatever reason, I often look for used CD's before I buy new ones, and I've even burned my share of CD's from friends. I live in the real world, I am not perfect, and I am not suggesting that the world should be. My whole purpose in writing this is to get people to THINK about what they are doing, and understand exactly how it affects the bands and labels that they are fans of.

My original rant was spurred by the fact that I had come across several pirate mp3 sites offering our full CD available for download. Some offered this service for free, while others (even more deplorable) for a small "fee". A couple even boasted the number of downloads of the CD that there had been. At the time, these numbers totaled more than the number of CD's that we had sold.

This is a problem.

I have no idea what the download numbers are at this moment, but I can tell you that even if we sold ALL of the CD's that we have in print- we WOULD NOT make the money back that it cost us to produce the CD. In other words, we're not doing this to be rock stars or make tons of money. We're doing this because we love the music.

Releasing a CD costs money. Not just the manufacturing costs of the CD itself, but the full production cost that is influenced by many factors. With our particular CD we had to pay for some collaboration (though some was generously donated). To get music to sound its best, mastering is an industry staple. While some bands choose to do this for themselves, it usually costs a lot of money to have it done properly. Depending on where you go, mastering can usually range anywhere from $100-$800 depending on who you get to do it. I have found that a lot of electronic acts opt for the lower middle ground $200-$500. It's also fairly common for a band to have to pay for CD artwork and design, though some corners can be cut by doing this yourself. If it's not done by the band, artwork for an indie release can range from $10 to $1,000. Let's not forget the money spent on the software and hardware used to create the music. Yeah, some bands can use cracked software, but keyboards cost money. Once the music is made and mastered it has to be mailed to record labels. The cost of this packaging and postage can really add up depending on how many labels you send it to.

Assuming that a band is fortunate enough to get signed, the label has its own costs. There's the basic cost of staff (if there is one). There's the cost of physically manufacturing the CD. In our case, ONLY 500 copies were printed up in the first run. Almost HALF of those were mailed out for FREE for promotional purposes. On top of everything, the cost of packaging and mailing promo CD's alone can add up to several hundred dollars or more! Any fliers, ads, and even the cost for website hosting are additional expenses that need to be added to the total.

Let's say that we have about 250 CD's to actually SELL. If you buy direct from our label it will cost $12- but keep in mind that the label sells for LESS to record labels and distributors to keep the cost to the customer down at the stores. So, selling all of the CD's would only gross $3,000 (that's at most, the actually numbers are lower for various reasons). That $3,000 may seem like a lot to some, but it's not NET. When you factor in all of the expenses it took for the label to manufacture and market, and for us to produce the CD, we're LOSING MONEY.

Why do bands and labels do this, then? Ask anybody in any underground scene and they will give you the same answer- because they love the music. Ask some of your FAVORITE bands how long they spend on each track that they create and they will tell you that the spend hours and hours. We all hope that if we're not going to become rich making music, at the very least it will be a self-supporting habit. In other words, we hope that we'll eventually sell enough CD's to cover the cost of making the music that we love. If a band puts out a good enough release, isn't this a little thing to ask in return?

If downloading CD's becomes the normal practice, it simply won't be WORTH it for anybody in the underground to make music worth listening to anymore. Yes, you heard me right. Making music costs money, and takes a lot of time and effort. If all that bands and labels get from all of their hard work is a slap in the face with a CD download, and they have to keep eating hundreds of (or for some, thousands of) dollars each time that they put out a CD, they will eventually wise up and not do it anymore.

After posting my original rant, somebody sent me a big "fuck you" about this statement. Of course, since the individual began his argument this way, I didn't bother reading most of his letter. But the gist was basically that he was under the impression that I was suggesting that only bands signed to a label or that spend a lot of money are any good or are worth listening to. That's not what I'm saying. There are plenty of bands on our "friends" list on My Space that are unsigned that I think sound a lot better produced than we do and have better songs. I think that we're very lucky to be on a label.

What I am suggesting is that if you look at the popular bands, or just talk to some of your PERSONAL favorite bands that YOU think are good (something that the medium of My Space has made incredibly easy to do), they will all tell you that they spend a lot of time and money on their music. And yes, it's true, you can tell that most of the shitty bands clogging up the music arteries of My Space are ones that spend very little time, effort, or money to make their music. Don't believe me? Just look around My Space and listen to all the ca-ca that's out there. "I just made this, it's not done, but here it is anyway" is quite a common theme on My Space.

Talent is certainly a huge factor that I have not forgotten. I am sure that there are some individuals out there that can make music better than us using only a thrift store Casio and a recordable Walkman tape player. I'm also sure that if that's the case, many of these people will be content to give their music away for free on My Space and other outlets. For the bands that are trying hard to live up to the production quality standards set by their peers, spending a ton of time working on music, and money on equipment and production is the only way that they can do this. I don't think that they're out of line to ask to be compensated with the purchase of a CD if you truly ENJOY their music. If you REALLY like a band, downloading their CD doesn't help anybody but yourself. If you don't like a band, then why the hell would you want to waste your time and hard-drive space by downloading their full CD?

Making a CD costs money. If you put it up for free for anybody to download, you are stealing from the band. Giving their music away hurts them. It does not help them in any way.

There were many replies that I received criticizing some aspect of my stance, and arguments that I've seen posted on the net touting the merits of illegal downloading. The following questions and statements are not made by any particular individual. I have condensed the primary talking points of multiple ideas from various people to go over here.

One of the biggest arguments that I've heard touting the benefits of downloading is "I would never be able to afford all of the music that I have if I had to buy it all" or "it's easier just to download". To this I say, NO SHIT. That's the whole point.

Who says that you are entitled to have every CD that you want? I can't afford all of the clothes that I want. If my friend goes to Hot Topic, steals a bunch of clothes and gives them to me or sells them to me for a low cost, is it o.k. because I would not have been able to afford the clothes otherwise? What if it's just a pair of pants? What if 1,000 other people steal just a pair of pants, is it still o.k.? When does it become wrong?

People have difficulty wrapping their head around the idea that a CD and the music on it is a product. You can't take a pair of pants from Hot Topic and make copies of it and send them out over the internet. But the pants cost money to design. They cost money to produce and manufacture. They cost money to ship and it costs money to have the kid at the cash wearing a Marilyn Manson t-shirt with Robert Smith hair and make-up, ring your order up and put it in a bag for you. If somebody stole a thousand of those pants and started to give them away, I'm sure that people would gladly take them. BUT I don't think it could be argued that they wouldn't know that what they were doing was wrong. Even if they chose to ignore that fact, they would still know that it was wrong. If somebody stole your TV set, would you care what their justification was?

There will always be people who will post and download full CD's, but not all of these people realize that what they are doing is just as wrong as the above example. Some people will never get it. Those that do, and change their habits, will be better off in the long run, for it is the true music FANS who are the ones that support the music and keep the scene alive.

Another argument that I've heard is that "the CD I downloaded is hard to find". Again, so what? If it's a CD that's OUT OF PRINT, and the only copies available are used copies anyway, well, yeah, o.k., I MIGHT download it too. But don't use the excuse that it's hard to find as the only one to justify the merits of illegal downloading. With EBAY and the rest of the resources on the world wide web, finding music is easier than it's ever been.

Tied into the argument above is the idea "I never would have heard of you if it wasn't for downloading". I'll take this concept and add it to the other one for the next point that I'd like to make.

When I was a kid growing up in Maine, industrial/goth/alternative/punk was next to impossible to find. I'd stay up all night listening to the local Colby College radio station, WMHB. It had about a 5 mile broadcast range that I was fortunate enough to be in. I'd keep a flashlight and pen and paper by my bed while I listened to the radio in my headphones (I was supposed to be sleeping but all of the cool shows were on late at night). Whenever the DJ would read off the playlist, I'd frantically jot down the names of the bands that I liked- often mistaking the song titles for band names. Over the next weeks and months I'd spend countless hours trying to track these treasures down.

How did I find all of these great bands? A lot of them I couldn't. I had to send a SASE for catalogs from Wax Trax and write to labels that I'd see advertising in magazines like Alternative Press and Maximum Rock and Roll. I'd trade tapes with people all over the globe, but whenever I came across a CD of a band that I had been introduced to through tape trading, I would buy it. I had an uncle that lived in Cleveland (where I now live). I would send him on quests to find bands like Kode IV, Xorcist, DHI, Numb, and others that I couldn't find anywhere else. When he found all of CD's on the list that I was looking for, he'd mail them to me and I'd send him the check for them. I should also note that ALL of the record stores that he used to go to, to find these CD's for me, are now closed. ALL OF THEM.

So don't give me that "it's too hard to find" stuff. Hearing new music and finding music is easier than it's ever been before. There are hundreds of internet radio programs, there are tons of bands on My Space, and there are mail-order companies online everywhere, and there's EBAY and similar forums. Even if you prefer to buy a CD from your local record store (if there are any left) instead of ordering it online, THEY can go online or pick up a phone to order the CD from a distributor, for you.

Want to know what our CD sounds like before you buy it? We do exactly what a ton of bands and labels are doing- there are clips from the full CD on our website. This feature is now a common practice on many labels and bands websites. Music is EVERYWHERE now. You can't tell me that it's easier to download a full CD at random than it is to check out some record label or band websites to listen to clips. You can even make a request to your favorite DJ and ask them to play a band that you're curious about. I used to wait weeks and months before I could track down a CD that I wanted (often to find that it didn't have the track that I was looking for on it). Now it's as easy as making a few extra mouse clicks or doing a Google to find the exact CD that you're looking for.

The "I never would have heard about you if it wasn't for downloading your CD," argument is often followed with, "that's why I went and bought it". By this logic, downloading should not only help to make a band more popular, it should also increase their CD sales. We only need take a look at Skinny Puppy to debunk this theory.

Skinny Puppy made a huge name for them selves back in the day, before the internet took over the globe. They sold hundreds of thousands of CD's- an impressive amount for an underground band with next to no mainstream exposure. After a hiatus they returned- into the age of downloading. Not only had they become legendary in their absence, but they now had press in a bunch of mainstream publications and even had a video on regular rotation on MTV! By all accounts, they should be bigger than ever before. Yet I have read that even with all of the publicity that they have now, but never had before, they are selling less CD's than back in the day. Back in the day before downloading. That really says it all right there, doesn't it?

Then there's, "IMPORTS ARE EXPENSIVE". I understand that too. Before Metropolis picked up a lot of the bands that it did, many of them were only available through import mail-order. I used to pay up to $30 a CD for bands like Yelworc and Abscess. Unfortunately, shipping costs money. Yes, downloading for free is easier. Would I pay $30 for some of these bands today? Perhaps not. But I would think twice before I just downloaded their CD, and I certainly would NEVER put their full CD up for download.

This brings me to another argument that's tied into some of the above. It's one of the most common arguments for illegal downloaders. "CD's in general are too expensive". Really? Our CD sells for $12 postage paid. That's about the price of a large pizza at Pizza Hut. Yes, some CD's are $15 or $17- so add some chicken wings to that order. Most people wouldn't think twice about buying a pizza for that price. They'll eat it in a few minutes. Several hours later they'll crap it out and wipe what's left of it off of their ass. The smell that they leave behind when they flush the toilet will be the last thought that they might ever give to that pizza again.

Even if you download just one song and listened to it a bunch, are you saying that spending $12 on it isn't worth as much as turning a pizza into poo? Can you honestly say that all of the work that it took a band to write, produce, and distribute that CD that you love or just really dig, IS NOT worth as much as a large pepperoni is? Or twelve cups of coffee? Or a t-shirt that says "I like goth chicks"?

While writing this part, I was having difficulty coming up with something of quality that you COULD get for $12, or even under $20! The prices that people are paying today for clothes, accessories, and game consoles are higher than they've ever been, but CD's have actually gone down in price- especially in the underground scene. Yet some people will still say that CD's cost too much.

Sadly, that's BECAUSE you can download them. You can't download clothes, game consoles, and the like. If you could, people would be saying, "Clothes are just too expensive to buy". It's only natural for people to take the path of least resistance, especially when that path is also free. If you couldn't download a full CD with a few clicks of your mouse, would $12-$15 really be that much to pay for the soundtrack to your life?

"I don't want to buy a full CD for just one or two good song". Very true, very true. For years I have hated shelling out money for CD's that only had a handful of "good" tracks on them. However, I have found that a lot of independent artists are going the extra mile to put out a quality release. There are fewer and fewer filler tracks on underground CD's these days, and I believe that it's a result of the pressure that illegal downloading is putting on bands.

Still, sometimes you will just want "that one track". I've been there. I won't get into the full criteria that I use when making the decision to download a song versus buying the CD, but suffice to say that I at least have some criteria. Again, this rant isn't about downloading just one track, but if you find yourself downloading multiple tracks by the same artist, BUY THE CD. If their music is so good that you'll keep downloading it, they deserve the sale, don't you think?

One argument I've repeatedly heard follows the reasoning, "DVD's come with lots of extras. Why don't CD's come with lot's of extras if they want me to buy them?" What can be said in the face of that kind of logic? If you've made it this far in this essay, you should be aware of how much it costs to produce and market just a low-budget, short-run CD. Our particular CD (Encoder, "Supernatural", on DSBP) is packed full; we couldn't fit more music or extras on it if we wanted to. Assuming that a band could fit more "extras" onto their CD and that they had the money to produce said "extras"- isn't supporting the band whose music you're a fan of enough reason to buy their CD? In addition to hundreds of hours of work spent writing music and putting the music on the CD together, the band now has to jump through hoops and juggle flaming knives to get you to shell out a few bucks?

Look, extra's cost even more money, which will bring up the cost of the CD even more. DVD's have extra's because they're an entirely different medium. If you want to know about the "Making of Encoders 'Supernatural' CD" it's just not going to be very exciting or practical for us to include a documentary about it on the CD. Stuff like that is best kept for an interview. Videos worth watching also cost a lot of money to make. Asking a band to spend a lot of money making a video to put on their CD just so that you'll buy it is really missing the point.

DVD's are put out by movie production companies that have already made millions of dollars on the movie in the theater. They can AFFORD to put together a DVD with all kinds of extras. Comparing an independent CD release to a DVD is comparing apples and oranges. Brand new DVD's frequently cost $20 or more, used ones can be found for less. Underground CD's generally don't cost as much to buy as DVD's. What do you do after you're done watching the DVD and its extras? You put it on the shelf and watch it again in few months, a year, or longer.

What do you do with a CD? How many plays do the tracks that you like get? How many hours of entertainment do they bring you? What do you listen to when you're fucking? Do you put on a DVD when you're getting some action? Even if you do, the kind of DVD you put on you will probably turn the volume down and put on a CD. DJ's- how many people do the killer tracks get out on the dance floor? Club goers- how often does that one song by that one band make you shake your ass like it's on fire? If these things alone aren't worth just twelve or fifteen bucks, WHAT IS?

The last batch of comments that I've received concern ways other than selling CDs that a band can make money. While it's very nice of some people to offer suggestions, this is also completely missing the point. But let's look at a couple of the main ideas anyway: touring and t-shirts.

I've been promoting bands for many years and can tell you that industrial/goth bands rarely make money touring. A lot of them actually lose a lot of money on the road, or just end up breaking even at best. There is also that fact that a lot of band members have day jobs, and many have families. Taking the time off from work or away from the family just isn't feasible. Yes, there are some indie bands that can make money touring, but I would bet that somewhere out there there's a promoter that had to eat Ramen noodles for a month after the show just so that they could pay the band what they were asking.

T-shirts cost money to print. Considering that most bands sell t-shirts while touring, it really doesn't make a lot of sense for an indie band to make t's unless they hit the road. Even if they do, there's no guarantee that they will sell them. Selling them online is feasible, but even more risky. T-shirts are more of a promotional item, and bands are often happy to recover the cost of making them.

Ultimately, a band shouldn't have to think of creative ways to make money. Would you tell Burger King that they should sell t-shirts so that people can have their burgers for free? Would you tell a doctor that he should go on tour so that he can see his patients for free? These thoughts are nice gestures, but they don't really address the real issue.

The bottom line to all of this is that independent bands and labels are being squelched out of existence every day because of the illegal downloading of full CD's. If a band wants to give away its music for free, that's entirely THEIR prerogative. If they don't want to, what right does somebody have to make that decision for them? Who, but the band or label, should have the right to post the full CD on the internet to be downloaded indiscriminately? Downloading the full CD is one thing, but the individual that makes the CD available is truly the one that is betraying a trust.

Our CD hit the black market before it hit the streets! This means that somebody that we sent a promotional CD to had to be the one who made it available for download. This is a person who came to us or our label and essentially said, "I'm a friend, a DJ. I want to help you promote your music. Please send me a free CD so that I can help spread the word and we can both benefit from the arrangement". Maybe not in those words, but the concept of the arrangement is certainly implicit.

This person then went and ripped the CD. Then they put the entire release up on a website for anybody, anywhere to download. At no point in time did the label or band receive any compensation for this. I have to wonder, what does the person who put the CD up for download gain? What good can come of it? To me, it really seems like a deliberately malicious act.

Nobody likes their morality to be questioned. If tens of thousands of people are downloading, are they all bad? I'm sure that there are some despicable people out there that are downloading right now. But I like to believe that the majority of downloaders are people that just don't think about what they're doing. They don't realize who it's hurting or why.

Some people will never give a shit. They can justify any action because they feel entitled to have what they want, when they want it, however they can get it. You can't argue with that mentality. There are many people with just such a mentality that will read this (or the first few sentences before stopping) and scoff at these observations. In their heads, they're not the ones doing anything wrong by posting and downloading full CD's- it's the bands and labels that are doing something wrong. The bands and labels OWE them. These individuals believe that the world is there for their convenience, and if something is easy, it's just fine with them- no matter whom it may affect or hurt. These people's minds will not be swayed no matter how much logic is applied to them.

I hope to open the eyes of the few out there who are true music "fans", not just music consumers. The FANS need to realize that making a bands music available for download without the bands permission, hurts the band. If a band could have, at the least, THEIR FANS buy their CD instead of downloading it, it truly would make all of the difference in the world.

Don't take music for granted. Be a supporter. The underground needs it.

from Encoder

hey there, once again...its time to reiterate some basics..and check out the responses from others...overwhelming...heres just a few..

itunes and ipods are totally killing CD sales, big time!!
really is..they are killing the cd industry and all of the labels and bands I talk to agree...finally!! they don't even pay us for sales we have on there...they just keep it all and then act like no one is selling..thats their way.. anyone who trusts itunes and apple might was well suck some George Bush cock too...its all bullshit..its all a corporate lie!!

its sad, but I think DSBP will not last much longer in this scene because of the "no one buys cd's anymore" bullshit.. I am sick of it... holidays just show us more...this what America wants...
1- get married have kids
2- buy your kids all the trendy shit they want that the huge corporates put out for you
3- do not support independent music or film, just support the trendy shit they throw at you non stop and do it the way they say..

thats what they are doing to all that do not buy cd's from us anymore....too bad...we will lose lots on the scene and people will see how much it sucks when they do kill off CD's and the online digital distibutors kill you with their monopoly and $5.00 a download as they will do per song once they have convinced you all not to buy cd's....its working on the trendies I know...don't you see it.. of course they are doing this and only the blind don't see it..

to hell with poverty man!eat the rich!!!! don't fall for the bullshit..they are using you all..
]====the DSBP info team---------------------

What reasons do people have for reaming you about your stance on mp3s??? I'm curious as to what thier main arguments are. I understand that there is alot of music out there, and that for the prices of cds today kids want to know they are getting thier moneys worth. Most of us that love this music are...well...pretty much poor or struggling middle class. But the value of music (whatever genre it may be) completely goes down the shitter in the MP3 format. By value I mean personal value. I agree with you wholeheartedly on this subject. There's nothing like getting a new cd and opening it up and looking at all the artwork, reading and re-reading the lyrics. Hell, I get a kick out of reading the "thank you/fuck you" sections even. I can't entirely put my finger on it but this whole mp3 craze seems like a giant scam created by top-dollar (read:crap) labels getting pissed off at "poor" sales. So these labels (like sony) start releasing mp3s to garner more money off the young folk knowing that alot of them are stealing it because thier prices are too high and the artists they sign have nothing interesting to offer. The downside is.....the independent labels get shit on while the younger generations get caught up in this bullshit fad. If DSBP had it's own music channel on TV, sony (and all mainstream labels) would be fucked. I dont hang out with anyone or know anyone anymore who watches MTV, but if I did I'd have to ask them if they were watching it because they actually like it, or if it's because it's the only option they've been given. Well, at least there is the internet.....hopefully more and more will realize they DO have options, good music does exist! And fuck man, DSBP is quality stuff at insanely low prices in todays high priced market. Where else I could get Andraculoid's Imbalance for only 12 bucks?!?! I almost feel like I'm ripping you off at those prices. I'll be speading the word of DSBP hella!

Yes we all do it...
its so easy to get the music you want these days just find the right p2p 
program and leech away!!
but is it really worth the future consequences???
just think about it....
you really think these underground artists are making enogh money to even pay 
the bills???
would you go to work all week and let the boss take home your paycheck and fuck 
your wife????
well this is basically the struggle these artists are going through because of 
all of us STEALING the music!!!!
and yes i am a p2p user and yes i do download music,but if i like what i hear i 
do BUY the fucking album!!!
plus mp3 format is in no way the same as the actual cd ! (no matter what 
bitrate you get)

all i'm saying is "Support the Artist" unless you really want to be left with 
HAVING TO LISTEN TO THE MTV MEDIA SHIT !!! because that is where its heading 
...in the very near future!!!

its ok to share , and leech a bit! just remember why you're downloading that 
track in the first fucking place!!!

im finished bitching now...i got transfers to check on!!


just to let you know, i'm going to continue to buy cds because personally i'd 
rather have the hard copies than some digital bullshit that can be lost with a 
virus or a computer crash.



Ditto! A CD was always more than just a track off of it.
It is the CD itself, the cover art and all within.
Hmm.... we shoud start a campaign... convice poeple!!

I hate itunes


what's going on in the industry, pisses me off too, bro. personally I don't 
want anymore labels falling. I remember years ago when Metropolis purchased 
what was left of 21st Circuitry.

I remember when Reconstriction fell. I'm surprised COP is still in action. Part 
of projects I'm working on Tommy, are to help save the industry, esp the 

Best of luck, Tommy.


I agree!!!! Fuck iTune!!!!!!! That and when you put music on there, they are 
like the FBI and they look at your cookies and your private stuff and send you 
lots of spyware!!!! Shame on you itunes!!! But anyway, you guys rock!!! I will 
always support you guys!!!! Or yell, Fuck the MTV scence too!!! Rich spoiled 

Much love,

  totally agree! As a longtime DJ, i do not even have itunes, nor an ipod, or 
even a CD burner!!! Nor any of that high-tech crap that's constantly being 
rammed down my throat by mega-corps and commercials. I prefer to purchase a 
band's CD from my local independent record stores (Wax Trax Records and Black & 
Read, Denver) because I know I am supporting the band and the record store. 
It's so sad to see how independent labels are being hurt. Oh, yeah. I'm 36, 
never been married, and have no kids!!! Can't afford either.

DJ Christ

and it's a shame, but there will always be a shit load more people who will buy 
into corporacy because it's easier..

  will stand by you in this fight to the bitter end....i will post bulletins and 
do what i can! hopefully we can make some sort of dent!
maybe if we get enough of us underground players together to fight this...maybe 
we stand a chance!!
i STRONGLY believe in your label man!
you are one of the only ones left that has any kind of substance ,and 
but yeah tommy just keep fighting man...you do have a few soldiers on your 

Klay (Greever)

Yeah, GPS enabled babies. I recently went to home depot and to my suprise there 
were 20 self check out lanes and two that actually had a person. Pissed me the 
fuck off because I did not have the slightest clue how to use the goddamn 

The only reason I suggested that is Im looking forward to DSBP giving the 
industry whore a jack in the face in due time. Anything to keep you around, 
just keep up the excellent work!


it's all so true, too!  already the greedy big labels are bitching about
having $0.99 downloads - they want more money!!  get people interested in
something, then jack up the price.  just like the walmart model - role into
town with the lowest prices, drive out competition, then jack up the price
to whatever they want.  people just complain about it all and do nothing to
fight it.  fuckin sheep, it makes me sick.  i'm starting to get very sick of
the "big names" in the scene now too.  did you see the new apop berz.
single?  it's like $10 for 2 fucking songs!!  who the hell does this guy
think he is??

You said it homeboy! people should be aware of this shit, and its amazing
that so many aren't? its like they are still weening on their mama's nipples or 
something.This world is geared towards the rich and elite and the people who 
like this style of music should cherish it for all its worth and stop 
devaluizing music and making ipods their almighty God!

Great work you do, and its a shame you are struggling.Most tortured artists 
that are good will never get paid what they deserve, and its
a crying shame to see people making the rich class even richer.

Shame on all ipod/itunes worshippers!
Clarence Johnstone

I was just reading your rant on the DSBP site...you are right! It's crowded 
scene, and we're
really struggling here despite lots of coverage, great reviews and as big a 
budget as we could
manage (not very big..)


Subject: itunes breeds piracy

--this is a mail I found on a bulletin board which reflects alot of what I 
been saying...here it is..

Here's an e-mail i sent to Apple:

"Web Order .. :
Support Subject : Music Downloads
Sub Issue : Other Questions
Comments : I signed up for an iTunes account about a year or more ago,  downloaded some music,
with the understanding i could download the same songs i had paid  for again if needed. This
seems to have changed. If this is the way downloading  music is to be handled, i really am
disappointed, and find myself uninterested in continuing to download music from iTunes. Until
this changes, i will not be  making any future purchases from iTunes, and am seeking an
alternative. Please feel  free to offer support that allows me access to music files i have
already purchased.



and the reply:

"Dear you,

Thank you for contacting the iTunes Music Store.

If your hard disk becomes unusable, the iTunes Music Store is not responsible  for the loss of
music or any other data on the disk. Therefore, we encourage you to  back up your hard disk
regularly. If the disk needs to be replaced, you can restore  your music and other data from the
backup and avoid the need to purchase replacement copies of your collection of songs.

To learn more about purchasing music, choose iTunes & Music Store Help from the  Help menu in
iTunes. Click Contents, and then click Buying music. "

almost as if they didn't even read my e-mail.

fuck itunes

piracy all the way!

===myspace user.

Subject: Napster and Itunes kill the music scene!!!!

yes, they do...don't even try to say I'm wrong...cause I am not. Ever since these 2 places became all the RAGE amongst the trendy millions in this stupid country, CD sales for all underground labels, and bands have gone so far down its pathetic.We are all jaded and torn at this point.We are all going bankrupt slowly and some quicker than others as we see... Its really sad to see the people that really "do care" about the music and the bands that produce the music going down, and losing it all, as these corporate monopoly online companies are cashing in huge and becoming so rich off of all the compulsive impulsive, trendy sheep that don't care about killing it all off, because they still support those places.

So, Why is this happening? -society is always looking for the next corporate trend, the poor and lower middle class are always working hard to make the RICH RICHER and then bitching about it.So, whenever they give us a new trend to latch onto, most sheep flock to it like flies on shit.Thats the deal with ipods and napster.Its really pathetic to hear people talk about it all, and all the music they cop for free online and think they are cool as they are destroying the very nature and livelihood of the music scene that is responsible for most peoples sounds and their "look and image" as well..thats where it all starts..the music!!

-They are advertising these companies on the TV all the time and promoting the fact that we should all pay these people for crappy mp3's and turn the "album concept" into a thing of the past, as they are trying to make everyone buy song by song of all the stupid mainstream hits, and then that trickles down to the underground as well.The underground is hurting more because every lost sale is more of a big deal than it is for the mainstream shit labels that sell millions to trendy weak sheep anyways..

-ipods are $300!!!!! imagine how much money these corporates have made off of all these sheep...when was the last time these people spent $300 on cd's in one shot? not often believe me...I am a distributor and work with so many others that do, and its very rare to get $300 from anyone for cd's...yet these people are paying that kinda cash for a walkman that plays inferior sound quality...mp3...is not a CD!what the hell is wrong?

The companies are banking off all the people and taking them away from the cd's and the record labels as they make billions and the artists who they are taking from are becoming broke, and have to find new ways to keep their livelihood going as they are not making royalties off their records/cd's anymore.I know this..I am in this position with my label and my band...and yet we get thousands of e-mails from fans and supporters each week that love the way we all sound, but they don't buy anything...cause they have the free downloads from somewhere or they bought a few online, or they are too busy with their own "new project" as everyone has a project in this scene too.

Sure, I know what the "haters" are saying right now..."the artists get paid from the downloads"....very naive...I bet you believe there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq too?

I don't know of any bands that have made any kind of signifficant cash from downloads at all..if you call $10.00 for thousands of downloads a paycheck, I would like to say, how about we do that to you at your job? $10 for 1000 hours? cool...we'll submit the forms to get that going for you too, so you can live like all of us "well off musicians"....

I talk to record labels as well, and most of them are not making much at all off of this...its not helping, its just hurting as society becomes "done with the cd format"....for an inferior format of mp3? talk about going backwards just to be a lazy fuck who doesn't want to stack any cd's in their house.. jeeez...

The corporates have pulled the wool over society's eyes again...yeah, many of the so called glamourous rebels are just sheep in peoples clothing as they try to act so "industrial" or so "sub culture" yet they are just feeding the corporate society and making Bill Gates kinda people all the more richer. while killing the bands, the labels and the people who really DID care about the music, and now really have to go to other things just to survive because of the downfall of the support system for an ACTUAL MUSIC PRODUCT!!

its like people don't care they are not getting a product for their cash when it comes to downloads..they are that blinded by all this.. they are paying for a cheezy mp3(like a cassette tape), and getting no physical product for all their cash...the mp3's can always crash or your system can have failure and you lose them all...unless they are all backed up..whatever...

so I just figured I would bring up some of these points to anyone who wants to read through, and I am not pointing at anyone specifically, or naming names...but I think its pathetic that society has decided that all of us musicians and record labels and distributors deserve a HUGE PAY CUT, because they found some new corporates to make richer and pay for a non-physical product and still expect us all to release music and go broke and lose our own livelihood and house while all these people get their music for free, or close to it, and then stop buying cd's so they can just get their mp3's to use on their overly priced and trendy ipod.

this society is at its lamest and never in my worst nightmares did I dream that it would suck so badly to be in the music industry....baahhhhhh

good luck, anyone in the underground music business will need it...